This has been done because there is indeed a conspiracy afoot and they have brilliantly hidden it. There are two gutters in every bowling lane. A new symbol has appeared at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (CCCM). The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. Touring the world with friends one mile and pub at a time; southlake carroll basketball. That CCA still exists is beyond me and people still waiting for rapture cult bus lie, as people in the grave believing that also. Over the years my experience with church has not been optimal but I continued to go out of faithfulness to the word and to God. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can anyone tell me who is a GOOD mainstream preacher? However, following what these churches call the "Moses Model," the senior pastor is usually the highest authority at Calvary Chapel. As a result, Calvary Chapel beliefs can vary from church to church. In the 1960s, the state was home to hundreds of thousands of long-haired hippies. What was amiss there that no one picked up and so addicted to church that they cant see these warning signs where killed entire family. I posted this some time back, so I reread what I wrote. You will have peace. Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast? the religious leaders!! This app will help you stay connected with Calvary Chapel Hernando. Topics: What is the family? David Cox: I did not realize that there were specific rules for music worship other than the desire to express genuine adoration of God from the heart of the musician and the worshiper. So, I am not a false teacher on this point, neither am I deceived on this point, nor am I misinformed. They do everything that they possibly can think of to make sure that darkness obscures what they are doing. found this also: Not so sure about the original post. You probably had a mental break down as evidenced by your raving and over the top excessive article. Parents are responsible for their children. No, I am only sharing this so that you, the reader, might understand my insight into the problems that are plaguing the church in America today. In the mid 80s he was telling people how he came to God. Calvary Chapel generally believes that it is the Lord who raises up pastors to lead. The guy is a dirt bag. By the way, look at the young man that killed his entire family in New Mexico in Calvary Chapel movment; that made The Daily Beast. Aside from this, precious few of its doctrines are accurate or even correct. He stated he loaded the shotgun and was waiting for to come home when God spoke to him. Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Maybe the original poster here has an agenda or a bit too much pride? I listen online to JD Farag (he is in Hawaii). Home. Hallelujah!! Smiths son-in-law and successor at California flagship Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Brian Brodersen, left the Calvary Chapel Association (CCA) this past fall with plans to build on Smiths visionbut from outside the fellowship that Pastor Chuck began. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. 2 Thessalonians 2 tells us that they did not love the truth enough to remain in it. Give me a Pastor/Priest/Church that is truly taking care of the Poor, Homeless, Fatherless, Widow, Single Parents and their Children and building strong families rather than the dumbing down and brainwashing ALL these FALSE heretic Leaders are doing. THIS SITE IS doing the right thing. Problems with Calvary Chapel Movement A copyright claim was filed against this original video by "Skip Heitzig" of Calv. Do you live with Him? London Jr., Charisma Magazine-Editor to Investigate and Report Church Abuse List which is on ripoffreport.com in search box type in John Paul Jacksons name and the list is there (dropped Rick Joyner/Mike Bickle from list for corruption reasons) along with Handbook of Denominations has a bigger list of names and addresses. Please consider praying regularly for us (. Came across two homeless people in 30s and tried to get them help. Thank you for the encouragement. A Look at Psalm 91: What about the Promises of God? A clear violation of the pastoral office wherein I called out the senior pastor and his wife for gossiping about my situation to others only to be shut down and and waived off.and this after being a member for almost 10 yrs. It may also be offered quarterly or monthly in small groups. (Watchman Nee wrote a whole book on the submission of laypeople to their pastor, what a topic for a wolf pastor!) Losing My Religion by Wm Lobdell. "I want to let you know that almost all of the info on CC is dead on the money. When I talk about spiritual warfare these groups do not play. The principal thing that I see wrong from the beginning is that . That is what Topical study is all aboutgathering all of the passages of Scripture in the Bible that address one single doctrine, bringing them all together in one place and studying what they teach on that one subjectthat one doctrine. This proves that you can put Christian words of a hymn to trash Rock music and it is still trashy Rock music! Why do you have a video with Bob Coy? I since the 90s, I have never considered Chuck Smith as one of the faithful. It's a calling really, nothing more. Just google all the false ministries and see how they live. Knew people who went to talk to him, to correct him; refused to see. This is nothing short of mind control operating in people as a whole. Calvary Chapel holds that "the church will be raptured before the seven-year tribulation period described in Revelation chapters 6 through 18.". Why? Other leaders say hes diluting it. Part of the problem I think with Calvary is that Churches are governed more by the Pastor and not by a ministry counsel or board of elders. Concerning putting the pastor on a pedestal, let me just say a few things. is dangerous, just because a church makes mistakes doesnt make them apostates. Whether using yourself as a positive or negative example, you begin to take the focus off Jesus. There is a tendency to exalt YOUR pastor over all others. Just run. This is exactly what the false prophets did in Jeremiah 29. However, in February 2005, Cain stepped down from ministry and issued a letter of confession, posted on his website[5] and excerpted in Charisma Magazine. Often you have to start one. Ive also never heard of equipping ministry before. Not to mention all thats been exposed by Trinity Foundation in Dallas, TX, Thieves by Trey Smith; Losing My Religion by William Lobdell, The Fleecing of Christianity by Jackie Alnor; Ungodly Fear by Stephen Parsons, Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola, Dont Call Me Brother by Austin Miles (2nd Book also), Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson/Van Vonderan and NOT reading and applying the Bible. There is no one path that most pastor I know has taken; some have advanced degrees, other no more than high sch. Do you know who else breeds false teachings in this same manner? End Times Prophecy. Smith's son-in-law and successor at . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Many who attended Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa in the past under the leadership of Pastor Chuck Smith are wondering what changes to expect now that a new generation is at the helm. He said he considers the separation from the association a difference in method, not doctrine. Were called to the mission of God which is to share the good news of Jesus. How this immorality is being employed in our day. I know longer fellowship at a CCC because I see the doctrines of grace in the scriptures. You made a comment about election on facebook; I cordially replied with well over a dozen scriptures. When we examine how the false teachings of calvinism have come about, if we know what to look for, we can see and then demonstrate how a verse-by-verse study of Scripture gives birth to those false doctrines and teachings. A good pastor understands the priesthood of every believer (and teaches that and allows that in his ministry), and that right and privilege that God endows every believer to make the final decisions in his own life. You are wrongall the answers you will ever need are right there in scriptureYour self-righteous lack of submission to the fullness of the gospel truth is what hinders youI would encourage you to begin with "The Plan of Salvation" in any Denomination or Non for that matter "Churches" as they all are puffing themselves up against the Word of God and many Christians much like . (Good!). Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale (CCFL) is an evangelical, charismatic megachurch in Florida, with over 20,000 worshipers attending on average. I like very small fellowships held in homes, where people worship Jesus, and each person brings special ministry to the group. Eschatology, that's is true, they are pre-trib. VERY SAD WHAT THE CHURCH HAS BECOME AND THE CONDITION so many false shepherds, wolves, hirelings, snake oil salesmen, charlatans sold out for $ and # (bragging about how many sheep/people that are SO UNHEALTHY). Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it would be better for you to make videos/articles on what truth is, rather than shooting down others for what you see as false truth. What do you have to say about CC in Manteca, Ca Im New to this Church.Was drawn to investigate it by their teaching of the scripture by book, chapter and verse Babylon the Great Some helpful information, The dangers of Peter Scazzero and his Emotionally Healthy Spirituality nonsense Part II, The dangers of Peter Scazzero and his Emotionally Healthy Spirituality nonsense, Why are people leaving the church? Aside from this, precious few of its doctrines are accurate or even correct. Sacraments - Calvary Chapel conducts two ordinances, baptism and communion. This family of churches is not a monolithic movement. I feel like the Lord has shown me that we are to seek to warn them but, at some point, we have to stop trying. 10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.. Research EVERYTHING they own here and overseas in Businesses, Property, Camps, Vehicles, Boats, Planes, Bank Accounts, Camps, Ranches and what they hide in other items. I find this very disturbing. I dont like my tithe money going to molest, rape, sodomize and murder children (we are ALL Gods children no matter what age)! Are we not able to judge one another righteously? He invited Jesus Culture to lead worship at Calvary ABQ not a month ago. A hireling , who turns a blind eye like Joe, and hopefully Joe will not continue to justify the end by the means. Jack Zavada is a writer who covers the Bible, theology, and other Christianity topics. Some have communion quarterly during weekend corporate services and monthly during midweek services. Our lifeline are interested Christians who pray and financially donate to our ministry. If you dont believe me, just go to a good country church one Sunday, and then a high society and sophisticated church in the city the next and you will wonder why those people are there (hard to justify in our minds extreme opposites it would seem). Joe, giving to missions does not absolve one from the guilt of looking the other way in the face of grievous error. Apostasy is turning away from God, not all the people you discuss have done so. I think men in the pulpit, a pulpit often standing higher than the congregation, well they need to be the lowest in their own estimation. God bless. To whom it may concern, Her husband's church got money from Spears' father. Many good things came out of the Jesus Movement of the 1960s, but like always, every time God moves in the world, satan gets into the mix and always messes things up to one degree or another. It almost seemed something in the morning service made me get burned out when I had stayed there over 6 years total. Margaret, Communion - Communion is practiced as a memorial, in remembrance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross. True and False Disciples You have no biblical or factual objection to what has been presented. Dan, He stopped all services that would wait on the Holy Spirit and does not allow anyone to stand up during worship unless the worship leader stands first. I can only speak for one Calvary Chapel not the entire denomination. But the music is still playing." Calvary Chapel is, however, still afloat, and has survived not just . And, by the way, the so-called doctrines of grace are a man-made construct NOT found in Scripture. With this app you can: watch or listen to past messages; stay up to date with push notifications; share your favorite messages via email and download messages for offline listening. Calvary Chapel strongly opposes the prosperity gospel, calling it a "perversion of Scripture often used to fleece the flock of God.". The movement is very strong in believing in the inspiration of Scripture. I DO give credit to Calvary Chapels that I learned to seek to study the Bible from them .I might of outgrown some things too possibly . There was always a sense of something in the wider evangelical world we were against.. That said, their whole wives listed as co-elders theme, is wildly unbiblical and sure to be the source of future error. Cant speak to Levi and his associations, but the church preaches the blood of Christ, focuses on expository preaching, and has a strong Christ-based congregation. As of 2000, it had a worldwide membership of over 8,000,000, with almost 60,000 churches in 144 countries. So busy doing church works/ministry that dont even know the condition of your own kids=amazing. Non-Cessationist position. I also understand that not everybody is the same (thank God for that) and some people are rubbed raw with some types of things while others love it. (Part 8), What Scripture teaches about the difference between the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, A Study on the Deity of Christ; Part 2 (Titles), Insights from Pastor Dana Coverstones prophetic dreams about the next few months. All Rights Reserved. Signup for our newsletter to get notified about our next ride. The CC movement was built around this pastor, and there are over 1500 churches related to Smiths church. Not sure how you arrive at your conclusions, but Calvary Chapel Churches, pastors and parishioners are predominantly Anti-Calvinistic and embrace Palagean & Armeniests views. Daniel Amos, Calvary Chapel, Anaheim CA, early January 1982 Calvary ABQ just had Jesus Culture leading worship a few weeks back. Now, many people will say right off the bat, Whats wrong with verse-by-verse teaching? Absolutely nothingIF you are a baby Christian that has just been saved recently. Please see the Apostasy Report video I did on Calvary Chapel if you have not already. A post on Calvary Chapel Costa Mesas website summarized their main concerns: that Brodersen is shifting around the structure of services to depart from traditional biblical exposition, and that he doesnt prioritize the movements emphasis on eschatology. They are: Communion is taken in the Sunday evening service at our church. Verse-by-verse study is for infants in Christ, it is how to get the milk of the word. An adult or adolescent in the Word cannot grow and come to understand the INTENDED MEANING of Gods Word through only drinking milk. I think she was largely ignorant thonot a hardcore witch or something. Nate is a degenerate lover of men and Skip operates in the spirit of Eli, allowing folly to proliferate on his watch. I truly believe he started out right and has a heart for evangelism but got caught up in being a pastor (which I believe is an evangelist not a pastor) at a mega church. Just listen to any CC radio teaching program, you will hear them teaching once saved always saved nonsense along with a host of other calvinistic teachings that are not Scriptural. Exploiting the Need to Belong by Stephen Parsons and bethcavete.wordpress.com (Coming Out Alive). That is my position. Baptism - Calvary Chapel practices believer's baptism of people who are old enough to understand the significance of the ordinance. And as with a lot of groups that are not the best (I am still looking for the best and cannot find it) there are good people in there. http://www.ocweekly.com/news/dino-cardelli-former-calvary-chapel-pastor-in-arcata-convicted-of-molesting-stepdaughters-6473328 (READ so many articles on this: and worse: Calvary Chapel created a deceptive site and people who were blogging and posting C.C. I am honestly trying to understand things of why i might of changed my perspective in this . 96,689 were here. RESOURCES. Hi, this was not my experience with Calvary Chapel. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. Thanks for the eye-opening article. For now, at least, the dove logo seems to have gone "undercover" on the back wall behind the podium at CCCM and . I listened and watched closely and wasnt surprised when Ruth Smith, Pauls wife, told us all that she spoke at a Catholic womens conference, at the same church, sharing about how these lovely Catholic nuns, whom she was fellowshipping with and teaching at their conference brought such joy to her in their fellowship. Heard over 30 years of horrific horrible abusive stories done to people by CCA. I do not believe that I am Gods spokesman to the church today, only Jesus fits that position. Calvary Chapel is inherently Arminian in theology and are not welcoming to their Calvinistic brothers as Chuck Smith claimed in Calvary Chapel's official position. You should have heard the excuses even from false agencies set up in the guise of Christian! Paul warns against that in 1 Cor. Apostasy is turning away from God, and those I have highlighted have done exactly that while pretending they are still representing Him. SO SAD! Pastor Chuck Smith looked past their unkempt appearance and saw souls hungering for Jesus Christ. i was a product of my environment. Close the book on all this crap, and focus on Jesus. Beginning of Sorrows: appropriately named! Watch. what's wrong with calvary chapel. The board recognizes that God has called me to be the pastor of the church, the shepherd. Bread and wine, or grape juice, are unchanged elements, symbols of Jesus' body and blood. In CC, the Senior Pastor hold the New Testament position of bishop. Compromise is inevitable; the business of business prevails. Your email address will not be published. I pray that you will understand that is truly shocking to have to face the reality, that NOT all seems what we think it seems. The Pharisees vehemently disagreed with the liberal Sadducees, yet Jesus rebuked them both. It may not display this or other websites correctly. These false churches, leaders, big named ministries are robbing the $ that really should go to Orphans, Homeless, Fatherless, Widow, Alien whats talked about in Matthew 25:31-end; Luke 14:all, Isaiah 10:all. Its disturbing to me that 70 percent of Christendom doesnt believe/know spiritual warfare. Glad you said something. Director: Timothy A. Chey | Stars: Ego Mikitas, Aaron Groben, Brian J. Ames, Nadia Maximova. June 14, 2018 5:30 AM 60 mins. A service at Godspeak Calvary Chapel in Newbury Park, Calif. A temporary restraining order and later a preliminary injunction were issued against the church in an effort to stop it from holding . Dont know why we sheeple need a type of King Saul to worship over God violating Ten Commandments, Revelations 2:4,14,20 actually entire Chapter along with Revelations 18:all. Smith appointed council members as his spiritual sons and entrusted them with the movement, according to a CCA council letter referencing the tensions over the past three years since his death. ! Does David actually say that he was born and conceived in sin? No, he does not. (Part II), How does a Gay person become Gay? Believers receive both bread and grape juice or wine. Thats my advice. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. When he failed at his stint a that church in California in 2004 he returned back here in ABQ and claimed his KINGDOM backhes always making fun of the seed faith preachers with his mock southern accent when hes nothing but a MONEY GRUBBER himself.I get a kick out of these old men and their skinny jeans, its as ridicules as 30 SOMTHING MEN wearing N.F.L jerseys lolIm not against anyone making money driving nice car, living in beautiful houses, vacations etc when they DONT FLEECE THE FLOCK.$KIP IS A MONEY MAN, pleasure seeker, he is a very smart man who knows the Bible, he is a sell outI hope his kingdom gets humbled and brought back down to earth before JESUS COMES BACK SOON? I have not thought like this before. It really makes us look bad. James Lloyd wrote it well. They really glorify their Pastors in the Calvary movement. 22 Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? 23 Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. I am a MacArthur/Friel-style reformed evangelical and have attended Calvary for a year. The only reason I didnt not walk away from the Lord after my dealings with CC is because I refused to let the actions of man be the reflection of God. Xavier Ries was a hardcore racist back then. Paying this way uses Paypals full security. http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c210sinking.shtml I was saved in 1981 directly as a result of Chuck Smiths teaching, and attended Calvary Chapels for 33 years, and only recently have I left. See web site for service hours and information. Supporting missionaries in 5 different countries. thanks and God Bless. THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING GIVE OUT OF THEIR NOTHING. "Calvary Chapel Beliefs and Practices." the restoration of truth lost that is culturally relevant to the needs of the church in order to walk in holiness or relationship with God, or detrimental to the church fulfilling its God-ordained mission. I bet Peter is glad that Jesus didnt treat him the way in this unforgiving manner when he rejected knowing Jesus. Alex Grenier true story, talk about EVIL and note: Father, Son and Holy Rift-Los Angeles Times. 00:00. The CCA council stated they cannot endorse Brodersens network and recommended that churches leave it. (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); min 50 One of their leaders works closely with Billy Graham organization. I actually don't recall taking communion there, but I guess with 12-14 thousand people it would be a task to administer it! The first problem, is that calvinism is wrong on almost every count, except one. Again, slanderous comments and judging people as apostate who dont agree with you or may have had legitimate failures. Bible - Calvary Chapel beliefs are in "the inerrancy of Scripture . He promoted such names such as Lonnie Frisbee, and we can not ignore his supporting and promoting of John Wimber the founder of the heretical movement The Vineyard. (Part 1), Biblical Principles of Interpretation, and why we need to Utilize them (Part 2), Biblical Principles of Interpretation, and why we need to Utilize them (Part 3), Biblical Principles of Interpretation, and why we need to Utilize them. We need that freedom., Calvary Chapel pastors who side with the longstanding CCA resist that characterization. What a shameful ordeal. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Venture in Faith: The History and Philosophy of the Calvary Chapel Movement VHS at the best online prices at eBay! But there are a few things I have found that I really don't like about it. Anyone can be behind these so called ministries and appear knowledgeable yet are NOT. Learn Religions. (Part 7), Biblical Principles of Interpretation, and why we need to Utilize them (Part 5), Biblical Principles of Interpretation, and why we need to Utilize them. It is only getting worse The leadership is corrupt. This evening we break away for earth's judgments & visit a party going on in heavenactually a celebration---the . 1. William, But there are signs of a wolf, and signs of a shepherd. (2020, August 27). All you have to do is scandal, peoples negative feedback, controversial articles, abused by any name of church, pastor and or ministry; is your pastor really a mason/masonic or funded by luciferian, satanic regimes. commercial whore. Chuck Smiths successor says he is expanding founders vision. Please Pray for Calvary ABQ. Mary, I have observed these mega churches flourish and will continue by Gods design. I had trouble with two people that talked like wolves that took me on Sunday night to that church and I tried to resolve and think of what I can do to help make it better and positive for a few years now. Zavada, Jack. They would do well to find out. Anne, Get out! i sometimes attend the wed. night bible study at Calvary Alb. California is often on the cutting edge of change. A child may be baptized if the parents can testify to his or her ability to understand the meaning and purpose of baptism. I believe your connection with MKUltra and black ops and the infiltration of the Christian church as devilish but if they were truly Bereans we wouldnt they have seen this all and held their ground? https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/09/19/hillsong-sex-abuse-scandal-to-be-investigated-by-australian-officials/comment-page-1/#comment-355252, http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=aaplw&p=scandal+on+frank+houston+by+donald+elley, https://donaldelley.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/frank-houston-part-1-new-zealand/#comment-13788, https://donaldelley.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/reuben-donald-elley-my-father-part-23-retirement-years/, https://churchwatchcentral.com/2016/08/23/timeline-source-material-related-to-frank-houstons-pedophilia-coverup/, https://donaldelley.wordpress.com/tag/frank-houston-abuse/. Defenders say it minimizes church politics, but critics say there is a danger of the senior pastor being unaccountable to anyone. That would be my argument, wheres your urgency in sharing Christ? Then many more went out and started churches around the country, Bob Coy, Skip H., and many others, many of those churches grew quite huge. 1. I understand that. The amazing thing about this video is that people actually think this is worship????? Thanks for the information. God is removing the tares (satans seed) who have been growing alongside Gods children. Skip Heitzig is one of the 13 on the board of directors of the CCA. What the Bible teaches on Women in Church Ministry Offices and Roles. . Can Bubble Tea Bring Gen Z into the Chinese Church? Yet the new [CCGN], established by Brian Brodersen, now threatens that legacy, the CCA council stated in late November. Those in the calvinist movement believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, besides this the only doctrines the movement teaches today that is correct, are their views on God and the Spirit. Know of a true example of a witch by the name of Florence marrying a Pentecostal Preacher and they were married many years heard of the damage she did by her grandson; amazing stuff out there. Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit forever, their sins are forgiven, and they are adopted as a child of God who will spend eternity in heaven. But, Raul Ries has always been a dirt bag. I attend one of the calvary chapels in San Diego County and they have embraced, in the name of Grace, everything from the false pseudo psychobabble teachings of the Enneagram and splankna and soaking prayer to mystical properties of essential oils and Prosperity Gospel teaching , including no longer speaking about the Rapture and a premillennial one at that, but rather really not speaking about the kingdom to come at all because the pastor has increasingly become strange bedfellows with a plethora of Heretics ranging from New Apostolic Reformation to Roman Catholic and emergent, none of whom are believing in the rapture or a new Heaven and new earth. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Justin Peters & Protestia Protect Predators, Protestia Founder Jordan Hall Investigated For Embezzlement, Protestia Founder Jordan Hall Attacks Wife & Daughter, People-Pleasing & Pandering In The Church, Calvary Chapels Steady Slide Into Apostasy, Why I Can No Longer Endorse Jacob Prasch & Moriel Ministries, A Response to Wretched Radio & Phil Johnson. He also use to get things in the mail that were written sermons that he and other pastors used to teach from so they didnt have to do their own. Register and Los Angeles Times Articles over the years. A wolf controls everything and everybody. Not all Calvary Chapels have gone in the wrong direction. Good old Matt Petersen was or more likely still is a CIA agent. Please see the posted video. Prior to ABR, Charlie was an instructor at Calvary Chapel Bible College (Murrieta, CA) and the Director of The School . And as you said, bibledoctrine, that size is a problem unto itself. Both called . But I learned along time ago, if there is something I or another person can do to make you not believe, then you were not meant to believe. in 2004 and missed the Pete Nelson controversy. I haven't seen any glorification of the pastors at Calvary Chapel. Lordship salvation? What it is, and the spin Calvinists put upon it. And what exactly did you find to be problematic with it? The Jehovahs Witnesses and many others that do not cling to sound teachings of the Bible. Josh: Yes, people NEED to see it for themselves, you can tell them but obviously they havent been burned enough by the church. I am not going to go into great detail here but I will say that the Jesus Movement that the Vineyard was large sprung from has strong ties to the CIA. Go figure? Not one. This same church did not vet the background of the Smiths, their teaching and another regular guest speaker and popular South African pastor/teacher (whos on the outs) but blamed THEIR OWN lack of discernment (they claim to be a discernment church) on the fault of the S.African heretic because he didnt tell them what he actually believed.
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