This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. I like all of them. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! But good luck with and please enjoy the new Glock! Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. True. All rights reserved. Youd be much better served with HOT 357 mag loads or a 44mag. Your skull is very thick in places (base of the skull) and some bullets arent designed for that kind of penetration. Ships To Store. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. And the department is no small one. And speed kills barriers. Shot placement?! I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. Open carry is fine where Im at. It makes a bigger hole. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. Its proven knowledge. THAT shot better make a change. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. That is those of us that has and carries guns. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase WebAs shown in Fig. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. I am a colt Gvt. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. You can either hit a target or not that simple. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. Please dont send me any hate mail. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. Practice while on the move. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. A .223 is just 55 grains. But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. Beats. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. What, is that like an every day occurrence? Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. This can take several seconds to several minutes or even longer. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. We look forward to serving you. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. I love it. So any caliber is better than none. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. Not concerned with concealed carry. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. This is exactly what I said above. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. Train! Against bad guys though, gimme a 45 auto. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. If you can fire without remorse. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Shot placement rules. I imagine humans are the same. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . However, from close enough range you could manage. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. Now that you know where I am coming from. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! A true warriors gun. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. Come On People!! Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. That changed for me Dec of 2017. and love a SA trigger. The paramedics said he probably would not live. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. Shot placement vs. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. Opinions all ! Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Its a freaking tarantula. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. Another, was a 300lb black bear. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? She said she shot him. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. Thats the secret. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. For another 2+ years. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. So it should not come as a surprise that while the DoD's call for submissions for the new military Modular Handgun System XM17 contract doesn't specify a particular caliber or size, they will most likely settle on a new 9mm sidearm. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. What will each round acco. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. I like my Colt GOV. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Witnessed it first hand. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through.
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