Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Comblain - Dorther Hubert Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . The "D.D. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. No maker's name at all. Tel: 01707 709372; In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Clment Charles Philibert Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Four barrel . The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). A "Greener" double? Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Burlet Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Ancion DD & Fils I think it was made 1890 but not sure. It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Most double shotguns represented here. Comblain H. J. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Cachoir It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. I have pictures If you need them. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Beckers G. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Coquilhat Aim Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. 1840-1860. stream These include the Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Many thanxPS:. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Again, thank you of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Their total production was around 180,000 guns. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Bertrand Antoine & Fils Counet-Leboulle J. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. Thanks again for the help! Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. OldGuns Newsletter . That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Thomas Jefferson. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. Board Of Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. Its weight The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Your help is appreciated. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Very long barrel. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Can be without star and ring. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Belgian Liege gunmakers As I've said, I'm not an expert. BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 Closset J.M. Where did you find the Falla mark? Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Arendt Maurice Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. I'll test it very cautiously. Christophe & Montigny The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Seen Courard A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. location, rather than a manufacturer. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Thanks! We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Bernard Lambert Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Thanks Brandon. Belgian Arms cie 1870-1898. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. Thanks. Proof No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Bonzon & Arents & Cie ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Baltus - Wilmotte The book cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Bazin F.J. Bertrand Joseph Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Proof Marks or Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Collette Lopold Counet - Genot Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Braekers Charles & Cie Ancion Jacques & Cie Behr Jean jacques I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Arnold Mathias Thank y'all again! Misc. It is was built using a very thick Collings Hadelin Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. Bernard Henri Eugne It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Chartier So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. The The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. In addition to Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Clment Walter The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. These firearms Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. Bultot Jean After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. 3 vols. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Bastin Frres Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Bodson N. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. IMPORTANT NOTE! Christophe Henri Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Any help would be appreciated. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! 1840-1860. I can send pictures of it. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. Charlier Ch. Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: %PDF-1.3 You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. I suspect the gun is a Janssen. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". (most sales were in the 1930s). I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Dallas, Donald. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Bouquin Ad 1899-2011 Modern Guns. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. These Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Thank you for The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Rich engraved. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Baker, David J. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). Serial Numbers.
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